Showing posts with label bearings. Show all posts
Showing posts with label bearings. Show all posts
Wednesday, 20 July 2011
Engine rebuild - bearings
When/if you need to rebuild your Bajaj engine replace everything you can with non-Indian parts. We know that the Indian scoots don't have the highest quality assurance; hence the prices of LML's, Bajaj's, and Lambretta GP's. The easiest thing to replace with quality is bearings. Learn more here. And bearings are super important.
Friday, 31 December 2010
Bearing update -- danger gray market
Since working on the TV175 I have learned a lot about bearings, because I am rebuilding the engine. This info is very important for all scooter owners.
Read about gray market bearings and what to avoid here.
Wednesday, 8 July 2009
Stuck flywheel bearing
Emailed my mentor Mike A.
Mike,
I am working on the fly wheel bearing. Heat gun got it piping hot. I tapped the housing on a wooden surface and bearing moved a little. Reheated and tapped against wood again. No movement. Stuck in place. Used a 24mm (my largest) socket to tap it out. It went to the end is just sitting there. Won't move further. Of course the socket bent up
the metal plate behind the bearing. Crap! I will need to replace that. I will try to reheat yet again and repeat the process.
Jeremy
Mike's response:
"yep you stuck the bearing. I said I use a propane torch for a reason, the heat gun just won't get things hot enough to work right. Actually I've had good luck using MAPP gass which burns even hotter than propane but requires a little more skill to not ruin anything.
Here is how you fix it.
Use a propane torch. Cheap to buy from Home Depot or Lowes (any hardware store really)
Heat up the mag flange. Move the torch around the flange to keep the heat even.
After about 5-7 min it should be ready to go.
Now carefully tap the bearing back home, you need to free up the jam. BE VERY CAREFUL HERE, the outer part of the flange around the bearing is very thin and can easilly snap off making your mag flange in to a paperweight. Sometimes the bearing will drop back in to place but not usually.
Turn the mag over so the bearing will want to drop out, over a coffee can works well, make sure the bearing/flange is level!!!. I use my big vice to support the mag while I heat it up.
Keep heating the flange up. After about 5 min if the bearing hasen't droped out on its own then try to tap it out. You want to use a socket thats just smaller than the outer hole on the mag so the seal can EVENLY push the bearing out. If I remember right a 27mm works well (and is the same for the rear hub nut).
Things are going to smoke (a lot) and be really really hot so don't touch things with out gloves or pliers. Once I get the bearing out I like to set the mag flange (or case) aside on the garage floor out of the way to allow it to cool down. Once it's cool clean/degrease it.
Getting things back together are harder and take a bit of patience to do right and not melt the seal. You might want to have some one with some more expierence put the bearings in for you to stay on the safe side. I can do it but it might be a pain to get the parts here, it would be easier to call Barry at SF scooter center.
If you want to send the parts to me I have time to do the job. Next day turn around." - Mike
Next step: I requested and received a free propane torch from Freecycle.org and now need to get a 27mm deep socket.
Follow-up email to Mike:
The damn propane torch kept blowing out. Used the heat gun again. The hole mag flange was hot even through my gloves. I had to tap it back in a little. I borrowed a 27mm socket (a 28mm or 29mm would have worked a little better) from a neighbor. I had to tap it moderately hard to get it free and to pop out. Of course I destroyed the track on the bearing, but since I am replacing all bearings this isn't an issue. Come to think of it everyone I speak to says to always replace the bearings when restoring. Silly not to. Again, I did destroy the metal plate behind the bearing, but I suspect I can buy one of those for a few bucks. I used the coffee can idea and it worked. The bearing was really stuck in there. I wiped it out and the inside of the mag flange looks to be in good shape. The bearing I took out was engraved by hand with ZS something and a C3 after it. Is that factory stock?
By the way, FreeCycle is where I got my propane torch. Not bad.
Two more bearings to go and not much more is left.
Mike,
I am working on the fly wheel bearing. Heat gun got it piping hot. I tapped the housing on a wooden surface and bearing moved a little. Reheated and tapped against wood again. No movement. Stuck in place. Used a 24mm (my largest) socket to tap it out. It went to the end is just sitting there. Won't move further. Of course the socket bent up
the metal plate behind the bearing. Crap! I will need to replace that. I will try to reheat yet again and repeat the process.
Jeremy
Mike's response:
"yep you stuck the bearing. I said I use a propane torch for a reason, the heat gun just won't get things hot enough to work right. Actually I've had good luck using MAPP gass which burns even hotter than propane but requires a little more skill to not ruin anything.
Here is how you fix it.
Use a propane torch. Cheap to buy from Home Depot or Lowes (any hardware store really)
Heat up the mag flange. Move the torch around the flange to keep the heat even.
After about 5-7 min it should be ready to go.
Now carefully tap the bearing back home, you need to free up the jam. BE VERY CAREFUL HERE, the outer part of the flange around the bearing is very thin and can easilly snap off making your mag flange in to a paperweight. Sometimes the bearing will drop back in to place but not usually.
Turn the mag over so the bearing will want to drop out, over a coffee can works well, make sure the bearing/flange is level!!!. I use my big vice to support the mag while I heat it up.
Keep heating the flange up. After about 5 min if the bearing hasen't droped out on its own then try to tap it out. You want to use a socket thats just smaller than the outer hole on the mag so the seal can EVENLY push the bearing out. If I remember right a 27mm works well (and is the same for the rear hub nut).
Things are going to smoke (a lot) and be really really hot so don't touch things with out gloves or pliers. Once I get the bearing out I like to set the mag flange (or case) aside on the garage floor out of the way to allow it to cool down. Once it's cool clean/degrease it.
Getting things back together are harder and take a bit of patience to do right and not melt the seal. You might want to have some one with some more expierence put the bearings in for you to stay on the safe side. I can do it but it might be a pain to get the parts here, it would be easier to call Barry at SF scooter center.
If you want to send the parts to me I have time to do the job. Next day turn around." - Mike
Next step: I requested and received a free propane torch from Freecycle.org and now need to get a 27mm deep socket.
Follow-up email to Mike:
The damn propane torch kept blowing out. Used the heat gun again. The hole mag flange was hot even through my gloves. I had to tap it back in a little. I borrowed a 27mm socket (a 28mm or 29mm would have worked a little better) from a neighbor. I had to tap it moderately hard to get it free and to pop out. Of course I destroyed the track on the bearing, but since I am replacing all bearings this isn't an issue. Come to think of it everyone I speak to says to always replace the bearings when restoring. Silly not to. Again, I did destroy the metal plate behind the bearing, but I suspect I can buy one of those for a few bucks. I used the coffee can idea and it worked. The bearing was really stuck in there. I wiped it out and the inside of the mag flange looks to be in good shape. The bearing I took out was engraved by hand with ZS something and a C3 after it. Is that factory stock?
By the way, FreeCycle is where I got my propane torch. Not bad.
Two more bearings to go and not much more is left.
Another purchase
I received my most recent order from Danell at SPD. They had some bearings on clearance and I bought them for the 2nd engine I plan to build. I also bought a brass throttle, which I will need.
My package included:
$20 - CasaLambretta rear hub bearing (Made in Italy in Mecur packaging)
$8 - FAG 6004 bearing (made in Portugal)
$8 - SKF 6305/C3 (made in India, but I may toss this one)
$20 - Li/GP Brass throttle pulley, sm
$0 - Makino clutch plates Lambretta Li (gift from Danell. They were free included in the package).
(plus a $34 Vespa part I needed was included in the total below)
Grand total with shipping $90.77
I bought these bearings to rebuild the spare engine. I also needed those clutch plates for the spare engine so that is good. The brass pulley will be used in the restoration of my TV as it is missing.
Thx Danell for the clutch plate gift!
Break down Bajaj
Before I purchased a Bajaj Chetak, I spoke with a friend of mine who owned Vespas and did a ton of research. He told me that Bajaj was made with inferior metals according to what he read deep in the forums on ScooterWorks website, I believe. This was over 6 years ago. That may be true, but what I am quickly learning it is more likely the "quality control" that is the issue with Indian-made scooters.
I have been totally happy with my Chetak and I have ridden it hard with little to know problems. Dealers have told me that they have had less problems with Bajaj than the 2-stroke Stellas, which is also Indian (LML).
I have 7,000+ on my Chetak now. While at AmeriVespa 2009 this past weekend I ran into Steve, owner of MotorSports (a very reputable shop) - a Bajaj dealer, and he asked me if I was experiencing any problems with mine or my wife's Chetaks. He went on to explain that recently his shop has replaced a half dozen Bajaj cranks, due to failure. He explained that the bikes had 10,000 plus miles on the odometer. An hour later my ignition switch stopped working. Two hours later it worked. Then it never worked again.
When I got home, I emailed my Bajaj mechanic. Now I should preface this by saying that my mechanic worked as a head mechanic for a Bajaj dealer and he worked as the mechanic for Bajaj USA Corporate. He knows Bajaj! I asked him if he has seen any problems with the crank needing to be replaced.
This is what he said . . . "Yes, all the time, they normally start to fail around after 6000 miles. And I had been rebuilt at least 40 to 50 of those engine due to the crack bearings or output shaft failure. Remember they were made in India."
The reality is whether Bajaj, Stella(LML), or SIL there is a chance that your scooter may never have problems at all or it may have a lot of them. The metals used, though I am not super educated or an expert, are probably not the biggest concern. The biggest concern is the lack of quality control in the Indian factories. I can say for sure that grommets, seals, and bearings from India are not worth saving money on. I have researched the crap out of these when restoring my wife's Vespa SS180 and my Lambretta TV175. So if your engine goes bad, I suggest you replace all of those items with quality made ones if possible to get (some Bajaj parts are strictly Bajaj without repros available and Bajaj is in financial trouble and may not be around for a while and Bajaj USA no longer exists).
If your engine goes bad, price out the parts. It may be worth putting another engine in there for not much more money, like a P200. Be careful with LML and Indian brands. Rebuild those first.
I strongly recommend considering rebuilding the engine yourself to get to know your bike. If it's like a Vespa engine it is not that hard.
I have been totally happy with my Chetak and I have ridden it hard with little to know problems. Dealers have told me that they have had less problems with Bajaj than the 2-stroke Stellas, which is also Indian (LML).
I have 7,000+ on my Chetak now. While at AmeriVespa 2009 this past weekend I ran into Steve, owner of MotorSports (a very reputable shop) - a Bajaj dealer, and he asked me if I was experiencing any problems with mine or my wife's Chetaks. He went on to explain that recently his shop has replaced a half dozen Bajaj cranks, due to failure. He explained that the bikes had 10,000 plus miles on the odometer. An hour later my ignition switch stopped working. Two hours later it worked. Then it never worked again.
When I got home, I emailed my Bajaj mechanic. Now I should preface this by saying that my mechanic worked as a head mechanic for a Bajaj dealer and he worked as the mechanic for Bajaj USA Corporate. He knows Bajaj! I asked him if he has seen any problems with the crank needing to be replaced.
This is what he said . . . "Yes, all the time, they normally start to fail around after 6000 miles. And I had been rebuilt at least 40 to 50 of those engine due to the crack bearings or output shaft failure. Remember they were made in India."
The reality is whether Bajaj, Stella(LML), or SIL there is a chance that your scooter may never have problems at all or it may have a lot of them. The metals used, though I am not super educated or an expert, are probably not the biggest concern. The biggest concern is the lack of quality control in the Indian factories. I can say for sure that grommets, seals, and bearings from India are not worth saving money on. I have researched the crap out of these when restoring my wife's Vespa SS180 and my Lambretta TV175. So if your engine goes bad, I suggest you replace all of those items with quality made ones if possible to get (some Bajaj parts are strictly Bajaj without repros available and Bajaj is in financial trouble and may not be around for a while and Bajaj USA no longer exists).
If your engine goes bad, price out the parts. It may be worth putting another engine in there for not much more money, like a P200. Be careful with LML and Indian brands. Rebuild those first.
I strongly recommend considering rebuilding the engine yourself to get to know your bike. If it's like a Vespa engine it is not that hard.
Wednesday, 1 July 2009
Vespa bearings
The bearing market in the United States is shifting and I am hearing about some SKF bearings going bad, especially in Vespas. I posted what I have learned here.
If you are in a restore project or an engine rebuild. Educate yourself and ask your bearing supplier some pointed questions.
On a side note . . . the Lambretta TV175 restoration has begun. I have 95% of the engine broken down and ready for either bead or soda blast and parts to a part washer.
If you are in a restore project or an engine rebuild. Educate yourself and ask your bearing supplier some pointed questions.
On a side note . . . the Lambretta TV175 restoration has begun. I have 95% of the engine broken down and ready for either bead or soda blast and parts to a part washer.
Know your bearings!
When it comes to engines there are a couple parts you wouldn't want to even think about skimping on, such as your crank or bearings. Imagine them going.
There is a lot of crap bearings being sold via the gray market and now some reputable shops won't even carry major brands, such as SKF. And there is a lot of inconsistency of quality in the some major bearing brands. Ask your shop what their policy is on bearings.
Remember when Mongoose BMX bikes were great bikes or when Iams was one of the top three dog foods? It wasn't that long ago! Now you can find Mongoose bikes being sold at Target and Iams at Walmart. People I speak with say, Iams is great food! Until I show them the ingredients and they feel like crap for feeding it to their dog for so long. They didn't do their research -- they just went off of brand name and previous reputation.
One reputable shop told me, "The gist is that our main bearing supplier won't order SKF bearings any more, because SKF will not guarantee which country the bearings were made in. He'd order the same stuff month to month, and one month they might be from Germany, and the next from India. He has clients with much higher stress applications than us, and they need a guarantee of quality, which can't be done when the bearings come from different countries like that. So, he won't stock SKF anymore, and nor will many other proper bearing houses."
Please always ask your bearing distributer where your bearings were made (it must be stamped on the bearing) and confirm that it was made to be used in the USA.
The shop also explained to me . . .
We don't use bearings from India full stop. The quality is too up and down and there have been plenty of problems with them over the years. Some seem fine, and other have catastrophic failure.
It doesn't matter which manufacturer made the bearing. You have to know 100% where the bearing was made and which country it was intended for. Which is why we only buy bearings from the same bearing house we've been buying from for years.
NSK bearings can be made in China. It depends who you are getting them off. If there is no country of origin marked on the bearing, they are from China.
Also, if you buy a bearing that was brought in on the grey market, there is no guarantee of quality, even of it was made in Japan or Europe. Dodgy bearing dealers import cheap bearings that were made for other countries, and not intended for use in the US. They are lower quality. Look for the case "SKF USA, Inc. v. International Trade Commission, 2005". It explains it all, and even some official brand bearing dealers are doing it.
Do your research! Eating it at 60 mph on 10 inch tires isn't worth it.
I ordered most of my bearings from Kaman Industrial Technologies and two of them are stamped "Japan" and the third (6305VV.C3) is not stamped at all. I called my rep immediately and said "are they from China?" She told me according to NSK . . . "PER FACTORY ALL MADE IN JAPAN". I feel a little a nervous.
Please do comment should you know anything contrary to this.
I emailed NSK the following:
Hello NSK,
I am rebuilding a vintage Lambretta scooter that can travel upwards up 60 mph and I purchased NSK bearings (some will be exposed to gasoline/oil mixture and require the tolerance for an engine) for the engine because of the positive reputation NSK has. I purchased them through Kaman Industrial Technologies.
From doing research, I have learned that there are a lot of grey market bearings be sold in the USA, which were not intended for use in America. Some of your name-brand competitors have gone to court over this because those bearings and stamped with their name on it. Bearings that do not have the country stamped on it often come from China and may not be of USA quality.
My questions are:
1) My biggest concern is I purchased NSK 6305VVC3 Radial Ball Bearing and there is NO indication of what country it was made in. The bearing is not stamped on the metal. The seals are stamped "6305V NSK A29" and the other side is stamped "6305V NSK A33". The bearing does not even indicate it is a C3 tolerance bearing, only the box does. The box does not indicate what country it was made in. Are you able to tell me where this bearing was made? And can you tell me if it was intended for use in the USA?
2) I purchased two other bearings that are stamped "Japan" and on the back of both boxes it says "made in Japan." The bearings are: NSK NU205M Cylindrical roller Bearing and NSK 6004 Radial Ball Bearing. Can you confirm that these were made for use in USA?
My thought is it's better to ask now and get the details on the bearings. I don't want to find out in 2-3 years when I am going 65 mph on the free way for a short spurt in heavy traffic and to have a bearing fail, which has happened to other scooterists with different name brand bearings.
3) The bearings I ordered are "industrial bearings" not automotive said Kaman Industrial Technologies. Is this a problem?
Thanx in advance for your help,
Jeremy
Within four hours I received this response to my email from NSK:
"Jeremy,
Thank you for your interest in NSK. I hope the below response will help address any of your concerns.
Kaman Industrial Technologies is an Authorized NSK Distributor. It is unlikely that you would receive gray market bearings from this distributor. NSK 6305 bearings are manufactured in the US in Clarinda, IA. We do not mark our bearing that are made domestically with manufacturing location. For this particular size the C3 clearance is also not etched or stamped on
the bearing. The marking on the seals of the bearings that you have purchased include the bearing series ( 6305) and the manufacturing lot number.
NSK bearings that are marked "Japan" are manufactured in Japan and are intended for sale in the US.
You can be assured that the 6305 that you have purchased have been made in the US.
6305 bearing are used in other industries and applications other than automotive therefore the reason they were not listed as "automotive" bearings.
If you have any additional questions please feel free to contact me.
Thank you,
Heather Strack
NSK Corporation
Marketing Communications
There is a lot of crap bearings being sold via the gray market and now some reputable shops won't even carry major brands, such as SKF. And there is a lot of inconsistency of quality in the some major bearing brands. Ask your shop what their policy is on bearings.
Remember when Mongoose BMX bikes were great bikes or when Iams was one of the top three dog foods? It wasn't that long ago! Now you can find Mongoose bikes being sold at Target and Iams at Walmart. People I speak with say, Iams is great food! Until I show them the ingredients and they feel like crap for feeding it to their dog for so long. They didn't do their research -- they just went off of brand name and previous reputation.
One reputable shop told me, "The gist is that our main bearing supplier won't order SKF bearings any more, because SKF will not guarantee which country the bearings were made in. He'd order the same stuff month to month, and one month they might be from Germany, and the next from India. He has clients with much higher stress applications than us, and they need a guarantee of quality, which can't be done when the bearings come from different countries like that. So, he won't stock SKF anymore, and nor will many other proper bearing houses."
Please always ask your bearing distributer where your bearings were made (it must be stamped on the bearing) and confirm that it was made to be used in the USA.
The shop also explained to me . . .
We don't use bearings from India full stop. The quality is too up and down and there have been plenty of problems with them over the years. Some seem fine, and other have catastrophic failure.
It doesn't matter which manufacturer made the bearing. You have to know 100% where the bearing was made and which country it was intended for. Which is why we only buy bearings from the same bearing house we've been buying from for years.
NSK bearings can be made in China. It depends who you are getting them off. If there is no country of origin marked on the bearing, they are from China.
Also, if you buy a bearing that was brought in on the grey market, there is no guarantee of quality, even of it was made in Japan or Europe. Dodgy bearing dealers import cheap bearings that were made for other countries, and not intended for use in the US. They are lower quality. Look for the case "SKF USA, Inc. v. International Trade Commission, 2005". It explains it all, and even some official brand bearing dealers are doing it.
Do your research! Eating it at 60 mph on 10 inch tires isn't worth it.
I ordered most of my bearings from Kaman Industrial Technologies and two of them are stamped "Japan" and the third (6305VV.C3) is not stamped at all. I called my rep immediately and said "are they from China?" She told me according to NSK . . . "PER FACTORY ALL MADE IN JAPAN". I feel a little a nervous.
Please do comment should you know anything contrary to this.
I emailed NSK the following:
Hello NSK,
I am rebuilding a vintage Lambretta scooter that can travel upwards up 60 mph and I purchased NSK bearings (some will be exposed to gasoline/oil mixture and require the tolerance for an engine) for the engine because of the positive reputation NSK has. I purchased them through Kaman Industrial Technologies.
From doing research, I have learned that there are a lot of grey market bearings be sold in the USA, which were not intended for use in America. Some of your name-brand competitors have gone to court over this because those bearings and stamped with their name on it. Bearings that do not have the country stamped on it often come from China and may not be of USA quality.
My questions are:
1) My biggest concern is I purchased NSK 6305VVC3 Radial Ball Bearing and there is NO indication of what country it was made in. The bearing is not stamped on the metal. The seals are stamped "6305V NSK A29" and the other side is stamped "6305V NSK A33". The bearing does not even indicate it is a C3 tolerance bearing, only the box does. The box does not indicate what country it was made in. Are you able to tell me where this bearing was made? And can you tell me if it was intended for use in the USA?
2) I purchased two other bearings that are stamped "Japan" and on the back of both boxes it says "made in Japan." The bearings are: NSK NU205M Cylindrical roller Bearing and NSK 6004 Radial Ball Bearing. Can you confirm that these were made for use in USA?
My thought is it's better to ask now and get the details on the bearings. I don't want to find out in 2-3 years when I am going 65 mph on the free way for a short spurt in heavy traffic and to have a bearing fail, which has happened to other scooterists with different name brand bearings.
3) The bearings I ordered are "industrial bearings" not automotive said Kaman Industrial Technologies. Is this a problem?
Thanx in advance for your help,
Jeremy
Within four hours I received this response to my email from NSK:
"Jeremy,
Thank you for your interest in NSK. I hope the below response will help address any of your concerns.
Kaman Industrial Technologies is an Authorized NSK Distributor. It is unlikely that you would receive gray market bearings from this distributor. NSK 6305 bearings are manufactured in the US in Clarinda, IA. We do not mark our bearing that are made domestically with manufacturing location. For this particular size the C3 clearance is also not etched or stamped on
the bearing. The marking on the seals of the bearings that you have purchased include the bearing series ( 6305) and the manufacturing lot number.
NSK bearings that are marked "Japan" are manufactured in Japan and are intended for sale in the US.
You can be assured that the 6305 that you have purchased have been made in the US.
6305 bearing are used in other industries and applications other than automotive therefore the reason they were not listed as "automotive" bearings.
If you have any additional questions please feel free to contact me.
Thank you,
Heather Strack
NSK Corporation
Marketing Communications
Friday, 26 June 2009
Bearings
In a previous post I research what I need to know about the individual bearings and what stresses they are under. I did this before ordering my bearings.
The above bearing came from Scooters Originali. RIV is OEM for Lambrettas and it is my understanding that it is a high quality bearing. It costs $60 and was included in my first engine parts order. I spoke with my mentor Tom G. (noted heavily in the restoration of my wife's Vespa SS180).
The following bearings I ordered from Kaman Industrial Technologies:
$50.63 - NSK NU205M Cylindrical roller Bearing (made in Japan)
$24.42 - NSK 6305VVC3 Radial Ball Bearing (made in USA)
$19.00 - NSK 6004 Radial Ball Bearing (made in Japan)
Total: $114.87 = $103.22 + $11.65 to ship to their warehouse what they did not have in stock. They shipped to my address for free, but I still needed to pay the freight cost from their sister warehouses. I dealt with Tonia Riveria at Kaman Industrial Technologies in San Leandro, Calif. and recommend her highly. She did a lot research for me regarding the bearings and was joy to work with.
I ordered my needle bearings from Jet200 along with my electronic ignition:
$12.75 - Layshaft needle bearing
$24.70 - Clutch needle bearing (qty: 2)
$12.75 - Gear cluster needle bearing
The above bearing came from Scooters Originali. RIV is OEM for Lambrettas and it is my understanding that it is a high quality bearing. It costs $60 and was included in my first engine parts order. I spoke with my mentor Tom G. (noted heavily in the restoration of my wife's Vespa SS180).
The following bearings I ordered from Kaman Industrial Technologies:
$50.63 - NSK NU205M Cylindrical roller Bearing (made in Japan)
$24.42 - NSK 6305VVC3 Radial Ball Bearing (made in USA)
$19.00 - NSK 6004 Radial Ball Bearing (made in Japan)
Total: $114.87 = $103.22 + $11.65 to ship to their warehouse what they did not have in stock. They shipped to my address for free, but I still needed to pay the freight cost from their sister warehouses. I dealt with Tonia Riveria at Kaman Industrial Technologies in San Leandro, Calif. and recommend her highly. She did a lot research for me regarding the bearings and was joy to work with.
I ordered my needle bearings from Jet200 along with my electronic ignition:
$12.75 - Layshaft needle bearing
$24.70 - Clutch needle bearing (qty: 2)
$12.75 - Gear cluster needle bearing
Saturday, 18 April 2009
Bearing choices
I have been doing a lot of research on bearing choices and trying to make sure that I get great quality bearings. I spoke with both a scoot shop and two bearing distributors. SKF and FAG brand bearings are the most expensive bearings I looked at, but it looks like I will be using NSK. The bearing distributor has not been able to find the three needle rolling bearings based off of the numbers provided in Marti Sticky's book. Here's what I have so far:
- $27.35 for drive side main bearing "6305 VVC3 NSK (has rubber seal per Sticky's recommendation)"
- $50.63 for flywheel side main bearing "NU205M NSK (has bronze metal cages)"
* Alternative is $141 for FAG NU205E.M1
- $19.00 for endplate gear cluster bearing "6004 NSK"
- $11.12 for front hub sealed bearing "6201VV NSK"
- $60.00 for a RIV branded rear hub bearing
I will confirm that these are the best choices to go with.
Note: I do not need to order the front hub bearings as my front disc brake came with two brand new FAGs with metal seals still in unopened boxes.
- $27.35 for drive side main bearing "6305 VVC3 NSK (has rubber seal per Sticky's recommendation)"
- $50.63 for flywheel side main bearing "NU205M NSK (has bronze metal cages)"
* Alternative is $141 for FAG NU205E.M1
- $19.00 for endplate gear cluster bearing "6004 NSK"
- $11.12 for front hub sealed bearing "6201VV NSK"
- $60.00 for a RIV branded rear hub bearing
I will confirm that these are the best choices to go with.
Note: I do not need to order the front hub bearings as my front disc brake came with two brand new FAGs with metal seals still in unopened boxes.
Saturday, 11 April 2009
It's all about engine bearings
Background reference: great information on bearing choices can be found here.
When restoring my wife's 1967 Vespa VSC. I quickly took to two mentors, because I am a total newbie. Those guys are Christopher Markley and Tom Giordano. They are referenced a ton on the blog restore of the Vespa. For this Lambretta I have added to mentors to my list, Stuart Werner and Mike Analt. So now I have four teachers. I am in the process of learning everything I can about the bearings that go inside a Lambretta engine. I don't like to just do things. I get obsessive and want to know about each piece before installing it and without a doubt bearings are parts that play an integral role in the performance and safety of your scooter.
First, I spoke with Gene Meredith and learned he sells URB bearings, but of course he explained
we can get any bearing you want. we normally use URB, which is a good high quality bearing, but if you insist on SKF I can get it, although it will be more $ and also NO guarantee what country the bearing was made in (SKF supply whatever is sent to them from whatever country is making x bearing at that time - which is why we prefer URB which is a good European bearing - used around here by most motorcycle shops and we use and have had no problem with them. they are EC which is extra capacity rating.
Secondly, I spoke with my mentors and got a greatly detailed answer that taught me exactly what I needed to know.
For the crank, you want to use an ECP (extra capacity) bearing. If you can get that from SKF, great. If not, go with the best quality bearing you can find. But then again, SKF has plants all over the world, and I'm not thrilled with their Indian production. Some of the Vespa Crankshaft bearings you get these days are SKF Indian, and I have seen several cage failures (and NEVER saw a cage failure on anything BUT these indian SKFs).
I've had good experiences with ZKL bearings.
But remember, the magneto side bearing is a two-part roller bearing. N204 or NU204 (I can't recall right now which). The rollers are held in place by a cage. Most N or NU 204 bearings made these days are made with plastic cages. But if you hunt, you can still find ones with bronze or steel cages. You want to use a bronze or steel cage bearing.
For a few years, (a reputable very shop) was selling plastic caged bearings. I had spoken with the Technical Service people at SKF, who said that the plastic cages were not meant to be used in constant contact with fuel. I raised this issue with (the very reputable shop owner), who spoke with (very reputable Italian distributor and Lammy Lover) about it. (The Italian Distributor) said he had been using them for years with no ill effects, and continued supplying plastic cage bearings. I decided to only use metal cage for my rebuilds. I think -- but am not sure -- that (the very reputable shop) has changed their policy and that their magneto bearings now only come with metal cages. I have not bought one lately, so I don't know.
You will not have an option to use metal cages with some of the needle rollers in the Lammy transmission. Some only come in plastic cage these days, but it does not matter. The transmission does not see gas -- only oil. So plastic is not a problem here.
Tom
When I lived in Harrisburg, PA I purchased my bearings from an industrial company, but I can't recall the name off the top of my head.
I have also been told that Power Transmission Services in Baltimore at 410-354-0010 is good and sells ZKL as well.
When restoring my wife's 1967 Vespa VSC. I quickly took to two mentors, because I am a total newbie. Those guys are Christopher Markley and Tom Giordano. They are referenced a ton on the blog restore of the Vespa. For this Lambretta I have added to mentors to my list, Stuart Werner and Mike Analt. So now I have four teachers. I am in the process of learning everything I can about the bearings that go inside a Lambretta engine. I don't like to just do things. I get obsessive and want to know about each piece before installing it and without a doubt bearings are parts that play an integral role in the performance and safety of your scooter.
First, I spoke with Gene Meredith and learned he sells URB bearings, but of course he explained
we can get any bearing you want. we normally use URB, which is a good high quality bearing, but if you insist on SKF I can get it, although it will be more $ and also NO guarantee what country the bearing was made in (SKF supply whatever is sent to them from whatever country is making x bearing at that time - which is why we prefer URB which is a good European bearing - used around here by most motorcycle shops and we use and have had no problem with them. they are EC which is extra capacity rating.
Secondly, I spoke with my mentors and got a greatly detailed answer that taught me exactly what I needed to know.
For the crank, you want to use an ECP (extra capacity) bearing. If you can get that from SKF, great. If not, go with the best quality bearing you can find. But then again, SKF has plants all over the world, and I'm not thrilled with their Indian production. Some of the Vespa Crankshaft bearings you get these days are SKF Indian, and I have seen several cage failures (and NEVER saw a cage failure on anything BUT these indian SKFs).
I've had good experiences with ZKL bearings.
But remember, the magneto side bearing is a two-part roller bearing. N204 or NU204 (I can't recall right now which). The rollers are held in place by a cage. Most N or NU 204 bearings made these days are made with plastic cages. But if you hunt, you can still find ones with bronze or steel cages. You want to use a bronze or steel cage bearing.
For a few years, (a reputable very shop) was selling plastic caged bearings. I had spoken with the Technical Service people at SKF, who said that the plastic cages were not meant to be used in constant contact with fuel. I raised this issue with (the very reputable shop owner), who spoke with (very reputable Italian distributor and Lammy Lover) about it. (The Italian Distributor) said he had been using them for years with no ill effects, and continued supplying plastic cage bearings. I decided to only use metal cage for my rebuilds. I think -- but am not sure -- that (the very reputable shop) has changed their policy and that their magneto bearings now only come with metal cages. I have not bought one lately, so I don't know.
You will not have an option to use metal cages with some of the needle rollers in the Lammy transmission. Some only come in plastic cage these days, but it does not matter. The transmission does not see gas -- only oil. So plastic is not a problem here.
Tom
When I lived in Harrisburg, PA I purchased my bearings from an industrial company, but I can't recall the name off the top of my head.
I have also been told that Power Transmission Services in Baltimore at 410-354-0010 is good and sells ZKL as well.
Tuesday, 4 March 2008
Use sealed bearings or not?
I used sealed bearings in my front hub...
I received a great "comment" from Paul B. (thanx Paul it's folks like you that help me and the readers think through things and learn more about our hobby):
"Sealed bearings in the hub? Why?The "open" bearings work great, (as you saw in your own disassembly) and are serviceable, which make them last forever. You have removed the ability to service your bearing. The sealed bearings will NEVER last so long. Grease degrades with time, usage, and heat. How will you renew the grease in your sealed bearings? Why change from a system that works great to a system that limits your options?" - Paul B.
Paul B. is correct that the stock bearing works just great and there is no need to upgrade it.
The reason I upgraded it is two fold:
1. My bearing dealer assured me that with the use of the Vespa that I would likely get40 years of use out of it. 2. There is less chance of grime getting in the bearing and therefore a lower maintenance.
My mentor Christopher Markley is a proponent for installing sealed bearings on the front hub and taking advantage of this "modern" (relatively speaking) technology.
It is my understanding that the later model Vespas came equipped with a sealed bearing in the front hub (but don't quote me -- I am far from an expert) so it is not unheard of in the Vespa world.
Just to play it safe, I checked in with Tom G. and Christopher M. and posed the question, "crap, did I make a bad choice going with a sealed bearing Tom?"
Tom G.'s response was:
"It's not a big deal. Consider the following. Assume your open bearing's grease degrades. I can't recall, but is there a grease nipple that will allow you to
pump replacement grease in (and old grease out?) there isn't on older models -- and if there was, where would the old grease go? Into your brake drum? The fact of the matter is that you'll know when your bearing is having a problem by telltale noises, clicks upon rotation, etc. At that point, you can just replace the bearing. And even if you're running sealed bearings, you can, of course, just pop off the seals, wash out the old grease, and regrease and reinstall (sans seal this time). but its not worth the cost and effort for this particular bearing. Just replace it."
Christopher M.'s response was:
"On the bearing, I'd go sealed. It will always be clean and greased. An unsealed bearing gets corruption in it and degrades the bearing over time. But as you say, why not just go original? It is doubtful that you'll put on the many tens of thousands of miles that would take to wear either out. I'm talking tens of thousands, ridden hard, Italian style, and neglected. You'll be babying this bike. So either will be fine."
(Christopher is correct about the bike being babied. She'll live a garaged or basement life and my wife rides very easy on bikes as opposed to me, who likes to pretend to be a sporty hot dog. Though, I'd like Lisa to be able to ride it often I am concerned that times that she has to leave the bike outside it could get stolen even if locked up or possibly damaged if it's outside all day long while Lisa is at work. So it will be babied and go places where she can keep an eye on it, like weekend coffees.)
So to answer Paul B.'s question, yes I did give up serviceability, but I believe that the bearing will last "long enough" for my wife's riding career (next 30-40 years) without needing to be cleaned or replaced.
The rear hub is a different story.
"The rear hub bearing was definitely unsealed, because there is a separate oil seal used. There is no reason not to use a bearing sealed on the outer side -- in fact, it is extra security against oil seepage. However, I would NOT use a bearing sealed on both sides -- the inside should be open to received lubricating oil from the gearbox," said Tom G.
Nonetheless all very good information for you readers. Food for thought.
I received a great "comment" from Paul B. (thanx Paul it's folks like you that help me and the readers think through things and learn more about our hobby):
"Sealed bearings in the hub? Why?The "open" bearings work great, (as you saw in your own disassembly) and are serviceable, which make them last forever. You have removed the ability to service your bearing. The sealed bearings will NEVER last so long. Grease degrades with time, usage, and heat. How will you renew the grease in your sealed bearings? Why change from a system that works great to a system that limits your options?" - Paul B.
Paul B. is correct that the stock bearing works just great and there is no need to upgrade it.
The reason I upgraded it is two fold:
1. My bearing dealer assured me that with the use of the Vespa that I would likely get40 years of use out of it. 2. There is less chance of grime getting in the bearing and therefore a lower maintenance.
My mentor Christopher Markley is a proponent for installing sealed bearings on the front hub and taking advantage of this "modern" (relatively speaking) technology.
It is my understanding that the later model Vespas came equipped with a sealed bearing in the front hub (but don't quote me -- I am far from an expert) so it is not unheard of in the Vespa world.
Just to play it safe, I checked in with Tom G. and Christopher M. and posed the question, "crap, did I make a bad choice going with a sealed bearing Tom?"
Tom G.'s response was:
"It's not a big deal. Consider the following. Assume your open bearing's grease degrades. I can't recall, but is there a grease nipple that will allow you to
pump replacement grease in (and old grease out?) there isn't on older models -- and if there was, where would the old grease go? Into your brake drum? The fact of the matter is that you'll know when your bearing is having a problem by telltale noises, clicks upon rotation, etc. At that point, you can just replace the bearing. And even if you're running sealed bearings, you can, of course, just pop off the seals, wash out the old grease, and regrease and reinstall (sans seal this time). but its not worth the cost and effort for this particular bearing. Just replace it."
Christopher M.'s response was:
"On the bearing, I'd go sealed. It will always be clean and greased. An unsealed bearing gets corruption in it and degrades the bearing over time. But as you say, why not just go original? It is doubtful that you'll put on the many tens of thousands of miles that would take to wear either out. I'm talking tens of thousands, ridden hard, Italian style, and neglected. You'll be babying this bike. So either will be fine."
(Christopher is correct about the bike being babied. She'll live a garaged or basement life and my wife rides very easy on bikes as opposed to me, who likes to pretend to be a sporty hot dog. Though, I'd like Lisa to be able to ride it often I am concerned that times that she has to leave the bike outside it could get stolen even if locked up or possibly damaged if it's outside all day long while Lisa is at work. So it will be babied and go places where she can keep an eye on it, like weekend coffees.)
So to answer Paul B.'s question, yes I did give up serviceability, but I believe that the bearing will last "long enough" for my wife's riding career (next 30-40 years) without needing to be cleaned or replaced.
The rear hub is a different story.
"The rear hub bearing was definitely unsealed, because there is a separate oil seal used. There is no reason not to use a bearing sealed on the outer side -- in fact, it is extra security against oil seepage. However, I would NOT use a bearing sealed on both sides -- the inside should be open to received lubricating oil from the gearbox," said Tom G.
Nonetheless all very good information for you readers. Food for thought.
Monday, 5 November 2007
HELP ME READERS -- Steering Column Bearings
Howdy folks I need the numbers off of BOTH steering column bearings (they are the balls-in-ring types) that are labeled #34 and #35 on this page:http://www.scooterhelp.com/manuals/VSB1T.VSC1T.parts.manual/150.jpg
The part numbers are:
77024 (top bearing cage)
77025 (bottom bearing cage)
One of my bearings is beat bad and the other is MIA (might have been left with the guy we bought the bike from -- which was in pieces and in boxes when we got it). The only number my shop guy could give me was from the busted up bearing was "13515" -- does that jive with what you guys have?
Would you please help me and post a comment (click the comment button) with the SKF bearing numbers, engraved on on each bearing? I need that number to go to my local SKF dealer and buy them ASAP.
Lesson Learned:
SKF does not make the bearings. They cost about $15 or less for the two bearings. Purchase from your local scoot shop. The bearings are universal and are not unique to the SS180. Cost under $9 for both including tax.
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